Careers in Finance | Nirav Shah

Meeyeon (00:00)
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to CFI’s Careers in Finance series, where we sit down with finance professionals from around the world to unpack their career journeys, the decisions that shape them, and the lessons that they’ve learned along the way.

Today, I’m joined by Nirav Shah, a founder and partner at Versor Investments. Nirav began his career as a software engineer before transitioning into quantitative finance, building experience across global markets, and ultimately founding his own investment firm. So in this conversation, we’re going to talk all about that transition, what it takes to build deep,

what it takes to build deep expertise in a technical field, and the mindset behind starting a leading firm. So, we have a lot to unpack. Let’s get into it. Welcome, Nirav.

Nirav Shah (00:50)
Thank you, Meeyeon. Thank you for having me here. I look forward to the conversation.

Meeyeon (00:54)
And so our very first question that I always start off with for everyone is what got you interested in finance? Your education, you started off in engineering. So engineering and finance, I find often go together. There’s tons of engineers in finance, but what sparked your interest? Did you have a family member that was in it? Did you get inspired by media?

Nirav Shah (01:19)
So I think my father was a sort of a big influence on me. He was an avid reader and an investor. So growing up, our house was full of business magazines and magazines related to the equity markets. So, business and companies fascinated me at a very, very early age. It was always, also a constant dinner table conversation and a party conversation at our home.

Meeyeon (01:38)
Thank you.

Nirav Shah (01:45)
But you know, India in the 90s was very different from today. I was very good at school, very good in education. So the standard path for good students would be either to be an engineer or a doctor. So as I got into high school, I selected science as my major. However, there were two early indicators for me. One was in high school, even though I took science major and my focus was math and science, I did choose economics as one of my subjects.

And this was very, very rare. Almost, you know, about only about 2% of the science students would select economics also. And I did top my class in that subject, and I loved it then. Similarly, again, when I took engineering, and I selected computer science, we again both had economics and finance as subjects, which I did very, very well and thoroughly enjoyed. So I think those are sort of the early indicators for me to, you know, that sort of sparked my interest in finance.

Meeyeon (02:47)
Yeah, I find that I’m just trying to think back to when I took, so I did a business degree and I’m trying to think if there were any really science students in my economics classes, because economics, especially at the first year level, is a huge class. There’s hundreds and hundreds of students, but I think I didn’t really know, I don’t even know if I could name you one person that at least that was a friend of mine or within my circle that was from a science background. It’s not necessarily a popular

elective to take because it can be challenging, but that’s a great indicator that you’re going to be interested in finance.

Nirav Shah (03:23)
Yeah. And so what happened was after I graduated, I joined Infosys, which was one of the premier IT companies in India at that point in time. I was literally the first person in my entire graduating class, or in fact, grade, to get an offer at Infosys. And there I focused a lot on building scalable systems, working a lot with data.

Meeyeon (03:35)
Hm.

Nirav Shah (03:49)
And while I enjoyed system development, think I continued reading business magazines and continued being fascinated by business.

Meeyeon (03:58)
And so that actually leads me to then, because right after Infosys, you decided that you were going to go and pursue a master’s degree. So, after getting that job that seems very competitive already and hard to get at Infosys, after two years, what made you decide to go and leave that job and pursue a master’s degree?

Nirav Shah (04:06)
Yeah, that’s true.

I think there were a couple of triggers. That is also, know, when I started working, when I started investing, finally I had some money to invest and a couple of things happened. One, my initial investments did not do well. I fell into a classic value track where, you know, I invested in companies that looked good, but had a lot of debt. So I missed a lot of parameters. So that’s my first trigger. I realized I need to have a systematic

knowledge and understanding of investing. But, second also, I realized that a lot of my investments were a hit or miss because I was not doing it full-time. And I realized that I needed to have a process around it, which made me understand the importance of making the strategy systematic. So, you know, when I came across the Masters of Finance course that gave me an opportunity to combine my interest

with my engineering and quant background, I just jumped at the opportunity.

Meeyeon (05:22)
And it’s great to see how it seems like a lot of your career motivations come from deep personal interest and it’s mashing really well all of the education that you have for us. Computer science is always an excellent degree. It’s incredibly employable. It’s very technical, but especially when you obtain that degree, that’s like perfect timing for that to collide with an interest in finance.

When you considered doing your master’s degree, did you specifically want to do it abroad? Had you gone abroad prior to?

Nirav Shah (05:58)
No, was not really not really that was the first time I went to the US. I think it was more of the curriculum there. The financial engineering curriculum was not really available. Definitely was not available in India at that point in time. And even across Asia, it was very few places. US has always been a pioneer in investing. I got an opportunity to attend the University of Chicago.

Which had the Chicago Board of Trade, the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, a lot of quantitative trading CTAs around there and so it was just a very very attractive opportunity. To move to the US and study there

Meeyeon (06:44)
And how did you like Chicago when you first landed in the city? I’ve been there recently, I loved it. I thought the food was really good.

Nirav Shah (06:51)
I landed in the summer, best city ever. The views did change slightly as winter came in. Very, very, very cold.

Meeyeon (06:59)
Yeah, my God, it’s so awful there in the winter, it’s so cold.

Nirav Shah (07:03)
But it’s a beautiful city. I think it’s a perfect balance of life in terms of the quality of life relative to some of the other larger cities. So I loved it, and I had a great time when I was there.

Meeyeon (07:17)
And when you started your master’s degree in finance, I’m curious, how did your technical background in computer science, did you find that helped shape the way that you approached finance early on? Did you find your perspectives to be different than other colleagues? Because I find that oftentimes, particularly when you do a master’s degree and you have students that come in from very diverse educational backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, when you’re

all looking at either like the same case study or the same type, whatever problem it is, it’s always really interesting to me how people from just different educational and cultural backgrounds can bring so very many different perspectives. I’ll often find someone brings up a question that I never even thought of. Did you find that with your technical background in computer science and your work background that you approach problems or you approach finance in a different way?

Nirav Shah (08:14)
Yes, absolutely. I think it helped me in a huge way. Due to my technical background, I was comfortable in programming, data management, statistics, math, and it just made, allowed me to come up the learning curve very, very fast. It also allowed me to do things that were slightly different. So literally in the first month that I was in Chicago, I did an announced at a trend following hedge fund

and just talking to them about my background, my technical skills and just offering them to do an internship with them unpaid, just offering them to help in any way I can and that and you know gladly they accepted and they allowed me to be with quant researchers and traders all day and that experience was immensely helpful. So when I look at that experience early on

along with my technical background, I think it just allowed me to build a very strong foundation. In fact, I was one of the first ones in my master’s class to get an opportunity to work with a hedge fund.

Meeyeon (09:24)
And I was going to, it’s off that same topic, but looking back at that, how was that first experience working in the finance scene in Chicago?

Nirav Shah (09:35)
It was amazing. I loved every moment of it. In fact, over a year, I had a grueling schedule. I would be at the office, 7.30 a.m., working with the traders and the researchers all day, go for evening classes, study at night, and thnext day, again, in the morning, I’m back there. And I just enjoyed every minute of

the excitement of being on the trading flows, right next to the Chicago Board of Trade in the heart of the city, the energy, it was just very, very exciting.

Meeyeon (10:12)
Can you imagine doing that during a remote working environment? I always find that the idea of doing that in 2020 would have been so, so crazy.

Nirav Shah (10:25)
Yes, and the amount of learning that is there just around being around so many bright people and just different viewpoints. It was just very, very that experience was very helpful.

Meeyeon (10:40)
Yeah, and I love the fact that I started my career on a trading floor, and it was, I guess, at that point, it was the only environment that I knew, but I found so much value in learning from the people that I worked with just by virtue of sitting next to them all day long. And it’s not like, you know, they were sitting with a wall between us, like in an office or something.

Nirav Shah (10:58)
Yes.

Meeyeon (11:03)
They were sitting literally, you know, like an arm’s length from you. And so whatever was going on in markets, whatever was going on in just the regular news, it was a point to be able to get different perspectives, to learn from someone that has done it for so many years. But I found that, you know, there was a learning curve to that, like, especially going from academics directly to a trading floor. It’s one of the most unique, fun, exciting, I think, working environments that I’ve ever had the good fortune of being in.

But it was really awkward because I was like, It’s so weird. Someone is just going to be there next to me all the time. We have to be so comfortable with each other. But for you, what did you find was the biggest learning curve, not only moving from academics and then moving to a different country, but moving from a very technical background to financial markets?

Nirav Shah (11:54)
I think is a big learning curve. Markets are relentless. The investment process is tested every day and we require a lot of grit to handle the volatility, a lot of humility because we are wrong a lot, right? And a lot of adaptability to take decisions that are appropriate to sort of not have an ego to understand where we went wrong so that we keep improving the process

and you know just being focused on critical thinking, introspection and continuous improvement. So, I think that’s a big, big change from the technical world because in the markets we are tested every single day.

Meeyeon (12:41)
And when, after you finished your degree, your master’s in finance, did you have a role that was already ready to go to right after you graduated? Or did you have the internship while you were pursuing your degree, and then you went thereafter?

Nirav Shah (12:57)
No, so I did the internship for a few months and then right then I joined them pretty much and I was with them for a couple of years.

Meeyeon (13:08)
Okay, tell us about that experience.

Nirav Shah (13:13)
It’s been amazing, right? So I worked in Chicago for a couple of years, then worked in New York with InvestCorp for a couple of years. And that entire experience has been very foundational. I started my career in 2005 with a trend-following manager. Trend-following strategies was actually going through a very difficult period due to subdued volatility. So it was a big learning curve.

Meeyeon (13:23)
Mm-hmm.

Nirav Shah (13:42)
Similarly, I survived the uncertainty and disruptions of the great financial crisis in 2008 and came out stronger from that. think all these crisis that I experienced early in my career in the mid 2000s, ending with the great financial crisis, there were a lot of lessons learned and it sort of built the foundations, some of the things that I took away and we follow even now.

is focusing on uncorrelated alpha, having a big focus on risk management, position sizing, leverage management, managing idiosyncratic risk, understanding the importance of diversification, liquidity. I learned all of these lessons, very, very critical lessons learned early on in my career, things that I carry on even till today.

Meeyeon (14:36)
So the work that you did at Phoenix, quantitative finance, a short form of it, quant finance, it sounds very interesting. It sounds very kind of obscure, but I think ultimately it sounds very intimidating for a lot of people. How would you explain your day-to-day work when you were in that role as a quantitative analyst so that any people that are either students or earlier analysts can understand what that role is and relate to it?

Nirav Shah (15:08)
I’ll explain it in the context of Warsaw because lot of the things we do today is you know lot of the analysts sort of are involved in that process. So, I will sort of explain what the quant finance process is and there are various steps in there where the analysts are focused on. So, I think one of the first thing we do is see is there a repeatable mispricing in the market that we can take an advantage of it.

We evaluate the size of that opportunity and if we have an edge in taking advantage of that opportunity. So that’s the first thing. Once we do that, look at, you we try and identify datasets that can help us evaluate and take advantage of that. We also are focused on building proprietary datasets that can give us an edge. So for example, at Wurzler in event-driven strategy, we’ve built a proprietary database.

That’s unique and that sort of forms a base for a lot of our research. Once we have the data, we build models to take advantage of the opportunity. So that’s an edge for us. We test these models over time and across asset classes or regions as applicable. We apply portfolio construction, risk management techniques to integrate the signals or events in our portfolio. Then we do a thorough simulation.

stress testing over time and then if you are convinced that there is the idea makes sense, we introduce it in our investment process. We typically start trading with a very, very small allocation from our proprietary capital and then after we get comfortable, we introduce it into client portfolios. And then finally, there is a continuous monitoring and improvement of the strategy as needed. So these are the series of steps we follow.

Now, no individual person can do this. It’s always a team effort. So right from identifying the idea, working on the data, working on the models, portfolio construction, back testing, simulation, on each of these steps, there are analysts involved who are working with the PMs in refining it. So lot of my early days at Phoenix and a lot of the things that analysts do today at Versa are

working across these steps.

Meeyeon (17:39)
And do you have an industry that you specialize in?

Nirav Shah (17:43)
For myself, so I, for last over a decade now, I have been specializing in global event-driven strategies, including merger arbitrage and other events.

Meeyeon (17:43)
Just out of curiosity,

Okay. I noticed that a couple of people in the past that I’ve worked with eventually have their own niche, whether it’s by virtue of where they start in &A, more product, or whether they kind of start in media and telco and they kind of stay in that class for a very long time. Just out of curiosity, when you pick up, you know, like a general mispricing, how do you go about that? Like, it seems so broad. Like, do you see or like, are you already kind of

doing analysis in various portfolios and you kind of see something on a public security or a public company or like how are you sourcing these ideas?

Nirav Shah (18:38)
There are three sort of primary sources for ideas. One is what we observe in the market. So I’ve been trading event-driven strategies for over a decade now. I’ve been researching event-driven for almost two decades now. So we see things that are happening in the markets and we identify, is there other reputable events? So one is what we observe around

various events around capital structure arbitrage or merger arbitrage, various things in the market. The second source of ideas and in a form like Versus, so Versus specializes across the equity spectrum. So we do corporate events, which is my specialty, but we also have other teams that are focused on statistical arbitrage and also equity futures-based trading. So the second source of ideas is often interesting things that the other teams observe

or other research ideas that others are taking up internally. And there is lot of cross-pollination of ideas where we, that others find something interesting and they suggest for us to look into it or we find something that they’re doing interesting and say, okay, can we apply this in what we do? So that’s the second source. And then the third source is we do spend a lot of time reading research papers. Now, no research paper sort of gives a strategy that we can just pick up and use.

But we take ideas from different papers and then apply it in the context of what we are doing and see if that makes sense. So there are sort of these three primary sources for ideas.

Meeyeon (20:19)
Yeah, and the second one really speaks to how it is a team effort and that coming together of synergies is what puts it together.

Nirav Shah (20:27)
Yes, systematic investing involves a lot of collaboration across teams, And it is entire the teams that come together and sort of make it a success.

Meeyeon (20:40)
And when you think about your career growth, like I think it’s so important to be able to be part of a team, to work well with the team. It typically creates great people that can succeed individually when you could succeed with the team. When you think about your career growth, what do you think helped you stand out and move forward in such a technical and such a competitive field with ease?

Nirav Shah (21:08)
So I think there are three different reasons for me that has me with my career growth. First is continuous learning. So, coming from an engineering background,

I needed formal finance training, I pursued my master’s in finance, post which I also pursued the CFA designation. Recently, I completed a year long course in advanced data science and AI. constantly learning, reading research papers is a very core part of that has helped me grow in my career. Embracing technologies early, know 

when we started was one of the first hedge funds in the world to be 100 % on the cloud more than 11 years ago. So at that point in time, there were hardly any hedge funds. Today, it’s very standard and we’re way beyond that. So, but we were early on the cloud. Similarly, we started using AI in 2018. We started using NLP’s and other AI techniques in 2018, even before ChatGPT became vogue.

So just being early, embracing early technologies has always helped. And at the end of the day, it’s also lot of hard work. think, you know, in the financial markets, we are competing against some of the best minds in the world every day. And it just requires us to be at our best.

Meeyeon (22:33)
And were there any mentors or colleagues that had a really lasting impact on you and your development that you want to shout out?

Nirav Shah (22:41)
I think I’ve been very fortunate to have leaders throughout my career, including my partners at Versa, who have encouraged me to have an entrepreneurial attitude, enjoy what I do, work on very, very challenging problems, focus on meritocracy and just make sure that keeping clients first. think following these principles throughout my career has helped me and they also form a very, very core part of the culture at Versa.

Meeyeon (23:12)
And one thing I’m also curious about is, so you’ve had a very, I think, like international experience across your career and your education. How do you think that your experience across various, you know, continents, geographies has helped shape your understanding and your perspective on global markets?

Nirav Shah (23:32)
I think it has been tremendous. The thought process is different across regions. How people approach is different. The risk-taking abilities are different. So just having this global perspective allows me to focus, you know, understand that there are multiple levers and different environments that impact markets.

I’m based in Asia now, so just following, I follow Asian markets very, very closely. So that allows me to have, in addition to the US markets, an event-driven, we trade a global portfolio. So we trade the US, Europe, UK, Canada. So just the ability to track various markets, understand events, what drives markets across regions has allowed me to have a very broad scope

and apply my learnings throughout the investment process.

Meeyeon (24:34)
And having personal experiences living in those places, I think probably has also helped you gain that appreciation for those types of countries and all of the global market activity.

Nirav Shah (24:46)
Yes, absolutely. And it also allows us to identify, you know, part of the misprisings that I mentioned also happens because we do have a global portfolio, because the regulatory frameworks are different. The culture is different. The way companies approach, for example, if I talk about mergers, which I do follow a lot, every region has its nuances. And this is something that we also incorporate in our models.

Meeyeon (25:01)
Very…

Nirav Shah (25:16)
the nuances for various regions. So just the ability to travel globally, live across various continents has helped me understand that better and incorporate that in our day-to-day work.

Meeyeon (25:29)
And now I want to turn to your entrepreneurial story because that’s a really, really big transition that not everyone can or wants to make in their life because you go from being a standard employee that is employed by some large company to really having to start from scratch and think about everything, how to build the organization, how to hire the right people, how to fund the business operations. There’s a lot that goes into there, goes and there’s a lot of

thought that goes into that process, a lot of risk-taking. And it kind of, at least in your story, from my perspective, is a part of your life where you go from almost like an investment researcher, portfolio manager, to leader and entrepreneur. It’s just like a big, I think, pivot point in your career. What motivated you to start Versa Investments?

Nirav Shah (26:23)
I think in addition to finance, was interested in business and being an entrepreneur was something that I was very, very interested in. I think what also helped is I have known and worked together with four out of my five, three of my other founding partners for almost 20 years now. So three of them, I knew them from my InvestCorp days in New York. We all worked together.

And so we’ve known each other, worked together for a very, very long time. And then when we started Wurzler, we saw a gap in the market. We saw there was a demand for sophisticated systematic investment strategies delivered in a risk-conscious, institutional, and a cost-effective way. So just the opportunity to start something new with a fantastic set of people, having decades of investment experience, strong work ethics, and just fanatically focused on innovation and client alignment was very, very exciting.

Meeyeon (27:26)
And so you had a couple of other co-founders that founded Versa with you. And while I don’t know all of them and their backgrounds in detail, I’m thinking that they probably brought their own unique attributes and skills to founding the firm. And they were all fairly unique. How do you think that your experience in quantitative research helped inform how you built the firm’s foundation? So, your unique perspective, how did it? Contribute to Versa in its initial stages.

Nirav Shah (27:58)
I think multiple, multiple ways. So, because of my background in technology and data management, early in my career, I was involved very closely in the design and development of the systems that we built. also lot of the data management processes, the early processes to build these proprietary data sets. was involved in very much, I was involved very much again in the entire

decision to set up on the cloud and to build it to build our entire firm on the cloud. So definitely sort of, you know, having that technical background. So my other co-founders, had very complementary skills. We had two co-founders, Deepak Gurnani and Lurkar Henshel, who were decades of investment experience.

We had Duane Louis who had more investor relations experience and Andrew Flynn who had joined us from Tudor Investments who had operational experience. So, you know, so all of us sort of collaborated together and complemented each other. And then I’ve been involved in the development of merger arbitrage and even given strategy at Versus since inception.

Meeyeon (29:17)
Now I know that there’s clearly lots of wins to celebrate because Versor is still around today, still doing well. But what were some of the early challenges that you faced? I know that founding a business is not easy. Founding a hedge fund is even more difficult. And typically the more people that you have as founders, the more kind of complex it can be because everyone typically comes from, particularly when you’re finding a hedge fund,

comes from an excellent academic background, very driven, very ambitious. It’s sometimes difficult to reconcile everyone’s wants and desires. What were some of the early challenges that you faced in founding Versa?

Nirav Shah (29:56)
There were ton of challenges. It’s never a straight line. There’s always a roller coaster. We all see the end result to success, but the journey there is always very challenging. We, our processes right, getting the talent right, were definitely significant. Attracting the initial clients was always something that we did put lot of efforts on. I think two things mattered.

First, we anchored the firm on systematic research philosophy. So we focused on having a disciplined research process, having a clear hypothesis, rigorous testing, and evidence-driven decision-making. That principle was also central on how we built our infrastructure, our culture. So just, you know, every decision being grounded in repeatability, being grounded in a systematic process was critical. Second, we

built Versa with an institutional quality from day one. So in terms of our process, our technology, risk management, operations, we followed all the best practices that we had accumulated and observed over the decades of investment experience that we had prior to Versa. So again, the idea was, in case of a conflict, the question always was, what is the best way to do it? What is the right way to do it and go down that path?

Right and sort of and then you know not have decisions which are you know always have decisions which are based on data which are based on a process that has been thoroughly tested and there is evidence that drives it.

Meeyeon (31:40)
And this is a very, very big question, but Versa has, you’ve passed your kind of 10 year milestone. I think 10 years is a big milestone for any company, regardless of what industry. How has Versa evolved, do you think, over the past 10 or so years? And can you give us the kind of Coles Notes on how the company has grown?

Nirav Shah (32:04)
Now, it’s something that we are very proud of, especially in the hedge fund world. I believe the average life of a hedge fund is two to three years. And so we are very, very proud that we’ve survived 11 years, over 11 years now, in this competitive field and growing. And I think one of the things is, Versa has always been an innovator since inception.

We were, as I mentioned, one of the first hedge funds to be 100% on the cloud in 2014. Similarly, we’ve been using AI NLP since 2018. So I think the big change today is we are using more and more of these advanced AI ML techniques across our entire investment process. So, both on the investment side, but also on the non-investment side. So, for example, a lot of the code development and testing

is all being done by AI. So a lot of the project management is all being done by AI. A lot of the materials that we are developing for marketing, designing is all being done by AI. So a lot of non-investment work is being done by AI. Similarly, on the investment side, from re-signal generation, portfolio construction, risk management, trading, we are using advanced ML models.

for across the entire investment process. So I think that is a big change in the firm from the early days. The second is we are also a very, very heavy user of alternative data, which keeps expanding. And we’ve been a user of alternative data again for almost over eight years now.

Meeyeon (33:51)
And something that you’ve touched on is Verser, known for integrating AI into equity event-driven strategies long before it became mainstream. But that type of decision is kind of like a make or break for a business. It’s like, you’re either going to win, it’s go big or go home. But what made you and your co-founder so confident that this was the right direction? And what made you so confident that it was something that you leaned so heavily into? Was almost like a conviction trade.

Nirav Shah (34:19)
So I think it’s again, we’ve been using ML since day one of the firm, right? And that is what has morphed. So 11 years ago, we decided to create a proprietary database for events where…

Meeyeon (34:32)
And then one thing I want to say for our listeners, think ML, just in case you don’t know what we’re referring to, we’re saying machine learning.

Nirav Shah (34:40)
Yes, that’s true. And also one more thing that in finance, when people talk about AI, what they generally mean is ML or machine learning, which means using data to train your models. Right. And so I think we when we started the firm 11 years ago, we painstakingly started building a proprietary database. We used to do lot of it manually. So we used to actually go read every single

merger happening all over the world and capture that data in our data set. Today, lot of it is being done in a systematic way using a lot of AI models. having that proprietary database that we’ve built over the years is actually one of the things that’s giving us an edge to train our AI models because to train any of these models, data is critical. So, I think it’s something, it’s a philosophy that we had adapted early.

even before, it was part of the founding philosophy of the firm. What we’ve also been able to do a lot now is incorporate lot of the nonlinear features in our AI models to solve very, very specific problems. And another thing that has helped is the entire process of development and analysis has become extremely fast, leading to significant productivity.

So the kind of research that we are able to do now at record pace has just improved significantly because of the usage of all these AI tools.

Meeyeon (36:20)
Now something that I always am excited to get to with everyone in our podcast series is a little bit of reflection and advice, lessons learned from the journey, because there’s going to be so many people that listen to this podcast that see you where you are today and kind of see a part of themselves in you and say, you know, like, Naraf started, Naraf started in the same country that I did and he started computer science. Maybe someone is listening in

doing that same path and says, I want to be a co-founder of a hedge fund one day. Sounds like a tall, impossible task, but I’m listening to someone that has done that. And so these are some deeper questions. But when you’re looking back at your career so far, would you say that there are any really big turning points that you’ve had where you can look back and say, that decision, it was that time in my life that really opened

big doors for me and allowed me to be where I am today.

Nirav Shah (37:23)
I think there have been three. The first and foremost is understanding what was the strength, my background in computer engineering would actually be an asset in the world of quant finance. So, that realization that I have a strong interest in finance, I have a background that lends to quantitative research, and the technical background, just the integration of all these three was the first.

I think the second turning point was the entrepreneurial journey with my partners to start Verso. And the third one, which I think is the biggest turning point, is arguably happening right now. The integration of AI isn’t just an incremental improvement. It is actually a foundational shift that is fundamentally changing how we are operating.

Specifically, the ability to harness AI for instant insights, accelerate complex research, unlock previously inaccessible data. It’s just a game-changer. And I think our success will be defined by how effectively we adapt to and manage this critical transition and phase.

Meeyeon (38:40)
And you’ve been doing this for like two plus decades now. And one of the things that I think is very common and has become more common with the advent of technology, the smartphone, is it becomes difficult for people to keep their focus. Having a long attention span these days is kind of rare. How do you keep your focus? How do you keep wanting to learn the way that you do? How do you stay curious after two decades in the field?

Nirav Shah (39:09)
That’s always a challenge, especially because as a co-founder, I do have multiple responsibilities, and context switching is always difficult. So one of the things I do is I so my mornings are pretty much focused on research, so I don’t set up any meetings, I put my phone away, and I’m just focused on whatever

research that I’m doing or the topic that I’m focused on. So that very very focused few hours allows me to do that and then I typically attend club my meetings in the afternoons and then again I have a few hours of research and then because I work across time zones you know I do work late nights.

And then again, sort of those are focused on meetings. So again, it’s having these focused hours where, you know, no meetings, no calls, unless it’s urgent and just focusing on the task at hand.

Meeyeon (40:15)
And beyond the technical skills, I’m always curious. So I find that personally, there’s like a kind of threshold of technical skills. Like once you kind of meet those thresholds, it becomes very, I don’t know if subjective is the right word, but everybody has a baseline of technical skills. And then it kind of depends on the person’s work ethic, their personality, the timing of events in their career that determines how successful they can be in the path that they want.

What qualities do you think make someone or help someone become successful in finance today beyond the technical skills?

Nirav Shah (40:56)
That’s a great question. That’s a wonderful question. I think there are three skills that, you know, we sort of learn about them from experience only, but the three critical qualities are one perseverance, one needs to have the ability to navigate the volatility in the markets, you know, have stick to your process.

So think perseverance is critical. Humility is also important. We will be wrong, we are wrong and it’s important to learn from the same and adapt. So your humility and adaptability are critical. And then third is just keep learning. That never stops. The markets, there’s always something new happening. It’s actually what gets me or keeps me always excited. And I love learning so…

I think that’s something.

Meeyeon (41:56)
And I know, I don’t know how involved you are in like recruiting for Versa, but a common question that I come across is, know, like once ChatGPT came out and the language models, the other ones out there have come out, it makes it really difficult for people to stand out on a resume on a cover letter. And the specific example is my husband works for an engineering firm and the recruitment team said, you know, like over the past year, you know, when we received

let’s say like 100, 200 resumes for a software engineering position. Four years ago, we would sift through those resumes and we would very clearly know 10 people that we want to interview. Because they present very well, they stand out, and they all have written those documents in their own words. But today, everyone looks the same. Everyone seems outstanding in their own way. You want to interview everyone.

When it comes to people that are either looking to pivot into finance or just kind of climb up the ladder in seniority-wise, is there a piece of advice that you would give them to people to stand out in a time where it becomes increasingly difficult to do so?

Nirav Shah (43:13)
I think it’s…

So yes, lot of the resumes, so let me actually spend a couple of minutes on the interview process and then answer the question, right? So it is challenging because all resumes do look good. So a couple of things that we do is we do have a rigorous interview process and one of, so we focus a lot on the actual experience and try to understand if it has the skills that we need. So for example, for researchers,

we do look at experience working with data. And so as part of the previous experience, we do focus a lot on that, that how much data have they really worked with. So that’s for example. But then we also have a life case study where we ask you to solve a case study with somebody from our team actually observing you. And you’re okay. We ask the candidate to use whatever tools they want to solve it

and we try and understand their thought process in that life case study. That’s, you know, that sort of allows us to understand how people go through that research project when they are given a problem that they may not be familiar with. And in our interactions, we always try to understand the why of it. So we understand what something has done, but we try and go into why of it. And I think that is where we are also able to

get if somebody is just using ChatGPT to say the right things, versus they understand why they had taken certain decisions. So, you know, if we are talking about a project, we always try to get to why somebody used a particular technology or why they used a particular model or an algorithm to solve the problem. And I think sort of those going down to the why the first principles allow us to identify candidates who stand out.

Now what can candidates do to get there? So I think the first thing I would suggest is  understand the skills that are needed for a role and work towards acquiring them. Acquire them to a significant degree before reaching out to firms for opportunities. For example, if somebody’s just looked at things at a higher level and then reach out, then they may not go through all of it. That’s one.

Second, I would suggest, is to find a relevant internship or a role that you want to get into, even if it means a little less money, but I think that is very critical, especially for someone who is looking to pivot into finance today. That experience will be more helpful and more than make up for whatever sacrifice you may have to make in the short term. If that is difficult,

I would suggest, do a portfolio of work, multiple projects that indicate significant effort on your part to solve complicated relevant problems. think, so I think you know following these steps will allow people to stand out and in general if somebody wants to pivot my suggestion is just make the change today. The more you wait harder it will be.

Meeyeon (46:34)
Oh, I so agree with that. You know, it’s so funny is I, everyone always says, you know, like everyone puts their resume and cover letter through ChatGPT, it always sounds excellent. Everyone seems to want to interview them right away. I always kind of wonder, like, what if you’re the one person that doesn’t do it, right? It’s not, you’re not going to stand out because you’re bad, but if you are the one person that I think takes what would be characterized as the high-risk move of not putting it through the LLM and putting it through chat, GPT,

Nirav Shah (46:50)
Yeah.

Meeyeon (47:04)
Then you’re probably gonna stand out because the way that, you know, generally people write is quite different from the way that a machine writes. So you gotta pick and choose what types of risks you wanna take. But finally, just going back across your whole career journey, if you could give yourself, your younger self, one piece of career advice, just one, what would it be?

Nirav Shah (47:28)
I think it would be, you know, be obsessed about making returns for your clients. Do everything, every action around that one point. That is the only measure of success. And I think that’s critical for success in this field, that is very…

Meeyeon (47:46)
And then now I’m gonna move to our rapid-fire round. These are questions that you have not seen before. It’s just for fun. It’s just for people to be able to relate to you in a different, fun way. They’re very, very short questions. No real thinking allowed. Coffee or tea?

Nirav Shah (48:02)
Coffee.

Meeyeon (48:03)
Favorite city that you’ve lived or worked in.

Nirav Shah (48:07)
New York.

Meeyeon (48:09)
One skill outside of finance that’s helped you most in your career, that is a non-technical skill.

Nirav Shah (48:16)
I know whenever I get time, which is not muc,h I DJ

Meeyeon (48:21)
My gosh, my god, this is so fun. I love asking these questions because these are things that you would never really realize. A book or podcast or some sort of resource that you find yourself continuously recommending to everyone.

Nirav Shah (48:36)
So I think a podcast that I I think a couple that I, I pretty regularly is floating with models.

And then, second, there is a WTF podcast by Nikhil Kamath. I do listen to both of them pretty often.

Meeyeon (48:51)
And if you weren’t in finance today, what do you think you’d be doing?

Nirav Shah (48:55)
I would probably have tech start.

Meeyeon (49:00)
Would that be in finance-related, though? I don’t know. Ever consider being a doctor? Do you think that was a possibility in your career path?

Nirav Shah (49:02)
Yes.

No, I gave up to a big disappointment to my parents. I gave that up when I took economics in my high school instead of as my subject. That was one thing that I gave up at that point in time.

Meeyeon (49:23)
And last question, what’s one thing that people might be surprised to learn about you? Although I think the DJ one is pretty, like it’s a pretty big surprise.

Nirav Shah (49:33)
Yeah, that would have been the one. Yeah.

Meeyeon (49:38)
Okay, DJ, okay, I wouldn’t have, I would have never guessed that either.

Nirav Shah (49:42)
Now it’s something that I’d started at, but yeah, you know, it’s difficult to make time but it refreshes me. So if I just need a quick break, I try to spend some time.

Meeyeon (49:52)
That’s so fun. Well, Nirav, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your journey so openly with us, from the early days in engineering to building expertise in quantitative finance and eventually founding Versor. I think there’s been so much for listeners at every stage of their careers to take away from this podcast, whether they’re just getting started or thinking about pivoting part of their career or even considering what it takes to build a firm of their own.

So thank you so much again for joining us and to everyone listening, we will see you and hear you here next time in Careers in Finance. But for now, we will see you all very soon. Thank you so much. I know it’s very late over there.

Nirav Shah (50:32)
Thank you so much, Meeyeon, for having me.

No, it’s okay and I totally enjoyed it. So no, thank you. It was a lot of fun.

Meeyeon (50:41)
Yeah, and I’m so glad that we have you on this series because I think there are so many people that are going to be able to be inspired by you. From like our CFI community that I interact with and just knowing the regions of all of our learners, I think that they are going, I think a lot of people crave being able to kind of meet people that they wouldn’t necessarily be able to meet and be inspired by.

It’s very difficult when you’re, unless you live in like major metropolitan cities and like just by sheer luck to either get an introduction to someone or have that person be receptive to a coffee conversation to be able to learn from people in that way. And so like, I think it’s so great that we’ve had this series at CFI, but I’ve been waiting to have someone like you on here because I think that there’s going to be so many people that see themselves in you.

and want to be as successful as you. And I think just by listening to you, it’s really going to energize them and motivate them. So, thank you so much for taking the time.

Nirav Shah (51:49)
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I appreciate and I hope your listeners enjoy the podcast.